Paul
Child In Time
Posts: 12
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Post by Paul on Sept 20, 2005 12:46:46 GMT -5
Hi all! I have had a theory question which I have been wondering about for a while. I can play quite a few Yngwie songs at almost full speed but now I'm trying to learn music theory to compose my own songs. I did'nt start guitar until 4 years ago and had no music theory in school or anything. I have pretty much got the basics I think but I'd like to know how you can come up with some interesting chord sequences. I'll explain what I know up to now and then my question For example, in the key of C, we have the notes C D E F G A B C. So the I chord is C (C E G), the IV chord is F (F A C) and the V chord is G (G B D). So when we play the progression I-IV-V we actually play all notes of the scale. Also the dominant of the V chord will be G7 (G B D F) this chord "pulls" towards the root note so the progression I-IV-V7-I will sound pretty good. Okay so these are some basic sequences, but just playing I-IV-V-IV I-IV-V7-I or something starts to get boring pretty quick. We can make these basic chords sound more interesting by adding other notes to them and playing more exotic ones (e.g the V7 chord can be replaced by a 9th/11th/13th as far as I know (yes I know guitarists can't play 13th chords properly )) but how can the other chords be incorporated? So when can the ii and iii chords be used for example (minors based on second and third notes of them major scale). I realise this should be done by listening to their sounds and coming up with good progressions but my ear training is not great and I was after some general guidelines which I can start from. Ideally I want to come up with some nice chord progressions (not just boring ones) that I can record and then solo over the top of. Sorry for the long post, I hope I did'nt bore you ;D
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Post by alex on Sept 20, 2005 13:37:55 GMT -5
haha ignore those losers who tell you that (wink to the losers now, hello, everyone on this board, hello! *waves*)..
im not much of a listener either...
ive got a few, well, "the step after" what your talking about..
your interested in how V7 creates harmonic tension... the ..
I-V-vi cadence (interrupted cadence) is based around the expectation of going back to I, but moving away, not only to that, to the chord a tone higher, and to a minor chord not major so why not try..
I-IV-V-I (normal)
this i would do to create a pattern of what the listener thinks they are to expect... build on that..
I-IV-V-I-IV-V7
youve gone back again and now more tension (cos of the leaning note).. and then throw them off..
I-IV-V-I-IV-V7-vi ..
and then go can mess around and go to the medient, etc..
**************
or another way of teasing people by giving them tension and confusing them is ii-V-I..
Little History:
dominant was used in a perfect cadence to go to tonic, people wanted to build so they got this [sarcasm]wacky[/sarcasm] idea to stick the dominant of that before it.. so in C we would get..
D (D F# A) G (G B D) C (C E G) - (V of V)-V-I
so then to be diatonic they made the D, minor, to fit in with C major, hence the progression ii-V-I.
so why not go back to the original idea (as the new one has gotten old in my opinion, except when Yngwie uses it in a few of his songs, one song that sticks out is Vengence, wow)..
And maybe make it (V7 of V)-V7-I..
D7 (D F# A C) G7 (G B D F) C (C E G)
and we can see what the chromatic F#-F will sound like, pretty new and unique in a (brass trumpets) Traditional Cadence.
then you can think of your own, in many inversions and play with loads (2nd inversion is weak, would kill all the old composers if used a lot, adventurous, go for it!)..
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Post by queenofshred on Sept 20, 2005 17:47:23 GMT -5
Hey, Alex -- you calling me a loser coz I prefer to make my chord sequences by listening rather than using numbers? Look in the "let's write an Yngwie song" thread to find the nice Yngwie descending chord sequence that I use a lot. And also, a nice ascending sequence that I like to use alternates dim 7th and root position minor chords with the bass line moving up a semitone with each chord. This can go on as long as you like and is very good if you want something to modulate to another key (you can use each dim 7th as you would use a V chord in a perfect cadence). Here's a nice sequence I use in one of my solos. If you want to steal it for something, I don't mind (as long as you let people know where you got it from) lol It starts in D minor but modulates and ends in D minor again, so I'll write as relating to D minor, so as not to confuse you with the modulation. Dm-D-D7-Gm(2nd inv)-D7-Gm(2nd inv)-Gm-dim7th(withG#asbottom note)-Asus4-A7-A-Dm. This cycle can be repeated. I don't use all the notes from these chords, but this is the closest approximation to my seqence as I know how to write (I make my music by ear, not by number). Another nice one, used a lot by Albinoni, is what I call the "hot cross buns" cadence, as the bass line follows the traditional tune of the nursery rhyme Hot Cross Buns. This is a sweet little perfect cadence Ic-V-I. This can be extended with a preceding chord where the bass line would move up by step eg. IV-Ic-V-I or iib-Ic-V-I. It doesn't really matter how basic your chord sequence is, you can always make it sound more interesting by using passing notes. This is a note that is not found in the chords on either side but is used to link 2 notes from these chords on one of the lines moving by step. And one more very important thing -- voice leading. To make the chord sequence sound smooth, it helps if each note of the chord moves by step to the next chord position. Hope this helps, Paul
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Paul
Child In Time
Posts: 12
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Post by Paul on Sept 21, 2005 16:03:51 GMT -5
Hi again, Thanks to both of you for replies. I tried the progressions you both suggested and they sound great. Ideally I'd like to be able to play many variations in any key and then start trying some of the 'enhanced' chords (but not the weird dissonant jazz chords ). Actually in Alex's post you mention the progression ii-V-I and once I played it I realised this was the one used for the chorus in the acoustic version of Layla by Eric Clapton (F#minor / B / E / A) which sounds cool. The bit you wrote on interrupted cadence made sense too. I-IV-V7 builds a lot of 'tension' which disappears when you go to I but by going to vi instead it keeps the tension there. Anne, that was an interesting sequence you used from your solo although it was strange to see D-Dm, right after each other, but sounds good as a whole . I see the idea behind leading tones, I'll try to bear it in mind when coming up with my own. Wikipedia has an article on voice leading and talks about parsimonious and non-parsimonious voice leading. It sounds like in a parsimonious sequence each chord would not be drastically different from the last, meaning more chord changes were possible. This would allow you to have a bar with two or even four changes and it wouldnt sound awful as far as I can see. Looks a good idea, I'll have to try and come up with one and see how it goes. ;D
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Post by queenofshred on Sept 21, 2005 16:49:16 GMT -5
Wikipedia has an article on voice leading and talks about parsimonious and non-parsimonious voice leading. It sounds like in a parsimonious sequence each chord would not be drastically different from the last, meaning more chord changes were possible. This would allow you to have a bar with two or even four changes and it wouldnt sound awful as far as I can see. Looks a good idea, I'll have to try and come up with one and see how it goes. ;D Thanks. I didn't know the terms parsimonious and non-parsimonious. Hell, I didn't even know that what I was doing was called voice leading til I read it in one of Yngwie's lessons! ;D
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Post by alex on Sept 22, 2005 12:41:34 GMT -5
And one more very important thing -- voice leading. To make the chord sequence sound smooth, it helps if each note of the chord moves by step to the next chord position. yeah if your bach... since when does modern music only approve of soft voice leading, because its in the books of old dont mean it is true.. for classical and some stuff (cheesy love songs) it will be good.. but, not something i would put a great importance on practically using,..
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Post by queenofshred on Sept 22, 2005 12:49:50 GMT -5
I'm just saying it's important in my music...and in Yngwie's.
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Post by alex on Sept 22, 2005 13:23:56 GMT -5
show me.
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ritz
Devil In Disguise
Posts: 21
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Post by ritz on Sept 23, 2005 6:49:27 GMT -5
guys! i've tried some of the sequences and it sounds cool and strange sometimes..lol. i think i can learn alot here. very good discussion.
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Post by alex on Sept 24, 2005 8:31:10 GMT -5
anything else you wanna know.. ? start a new thread...
a good idea aswel is using the bass line in these chord sequences, i mean like inversions...
have one that does say an Yngwie pattern off... 3 notes down, 1 up, 3 notes down where the bass notes are like
A G F G F E F E D
i think that would sound cool.
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Post by queenofshred on Sept 24, 2005 9:14:40 GMT -5
Yes that does sound cool and I absolutely love D minor! ;D
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Post by alex on Sept 24, 2005 9:57:37 GMT -5
the thing im writing for you is in D minor.
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Post by queenofshred on Sept 24, 2005 10:09:21 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by alex on Sept 24, 2005 15:04:52 GMT -5
.............well, A Phrygian... but, Potato Patato
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Post by queenofshred on Sept 24, 2005 15:12:16 GMT -5
Well, I love A Phrygian, too. (Phrygian major, that is. Phrygian minor -- meh.)
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