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Post by queenofshred on Sept 27, 2005 10:46:26 GMT -5
Ok, as I've said before, I absolutely love musical lines that are harmonised a 3rd apart. And I think today I have worked out why.
It's to do with the major/minor duality that exists around those musical lines. Take this short example of a 6 note melody G A B A F# G (extracted from something I heard earlier today) and then harmonise it a 3rd below, so the 2 lines are
G A B A F#G
E F#G F#D E
Now play the top line on its own and the tonality sounds major. Do the same with the bottom line on its own and it will sound minor.
I think this also has something to do with the relationship between the minor 3rd, major 3rd and perfect 5th that are found in both major and minor triads, where a major triad will be
<>
[ ]
and a minor triad
[ ]
<>
with both containing the same intervals but the other way up because <>+[ ]=( )
And I think I've always liked music that sounds major and minor at the same time.
....................................................................................
OK. Now the discussion.
Firstly, do you like harmonies in 3rds (think of the intro to I Am A Viking and the theme in Brothers)?
Secondly, do you think that my explanation as for why I like this has any truth to it? And if not, can you come up with a better explanation?
Can you think of a song (doesn't have to be Yngwie) that contains another kind of major/minor duality (e.g. a minor sounding melody over a major sounding bass line)? And was this effective, or did it just sound like a load of shit?
And I don't want the only person to reply to be Alex. Please can some other people join in with the theory discussions, too? I'd like to know what you all think.
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Post by alex on Oct 2, 2005 9:05:12 GMT -5
Well... i didnt really wanna take an old fashioned feeling to this but i cant help myself.. gonna adress this point by point.. ************* "And I think I've always liked music that sounds major and minor at the same time" newp, basically, music sounding major and minor i really dont think it exists, you mentioned E and G, and they are relative.. its very mathmatical looking at this way, overanalyzing... you can split music up and say this and that about it.. What counts is that the lowest line starts on E and would be classed as E minor, however you do have more G's than E's so i cannot see the minor sound being fully implemented. There would be a valid arguement saying that it is G, because its a more used and dominant note.. (need to shit,  someones in there, this is why i need my own place).. anyways... Think of music and its possibilities of notes to put over chords... its a new sound.. Take Red Paint and Green Paint.. okay, [haha bet that was confusing] Right i need to stop messing lol, okay, so we have our Red and Green paint.. one is Red, one is Green, if you put them together you get Brown (i think, for this example you do anyway).. So you have a load of Brown paint, you look at it, it isnt Green and Red.. *bunny rabbit ears* Together *end bunny rabbit ears*.. its a mix of new things.. Just like putting major line and minor lines together, its a sound, ambiguous, as to tonality not to the key.. Music has its odd moments, when 2 instruments playing a note will sound like a perfect fifth of 2 other notes (this fascinated my old music teacher).. so there are exceptions to the "Rules".. I wanna go into more detail about labels in music but im hungover and i REALLY cant be bothered.. So, the questions. ********** "Firstly, do you like harmonies in 3rds (think of the intro to I Am A Viking and the theme in Brothers)? " - Yes. "Secondly, do you think that my explanation as for why I like this has any truth to it? And if not, can you come up with a better explanation? " No i dont, and i could explain in more detail, i will do soon though, i just need to get angry about someone elses thinking to do that though. "Can you think of a song (doesn't have to be Yngwie) that contains another kind of major/minor duality (e.g. a minor sounding melody over a major sounding bass line)? And was this effective, or did it just sound like a load of shit?" - Nope. |
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Post by queenofshred on Oct 2, 2005 22:49:34 GMT -5
OK. This is the point where I think "why have I only got one reply to this?" and "why am I not surprised who wrote this reply?". Come on people -- join in the discussion -- it's not scary. ******************************************************* Now, as to the one reply that has been posted, here's what I think: The paint analogy, whilst being very entertaining, is not how I hear music. A better analogy would be if the painter put little dots of red and green on the canvas so that, from a distance, it looks brown, but close up you can still see the red and green dots. Maybe you've never got close enough to see these dots but I do get close to the canvas to study in detail what's going on there. And I can hear both major and minor at the same time. That didn't confuse me at all. I'm used to reading text in different colours, so I just read it as the words said and ignored the colour it was written in. Is this really supposed to be confusing?  lol I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but I'd like to hear more about it... Please do (when you're less hung over). Yes, explain in more detail. I can make you angry if I really need to (remember the Steve Vai video?) ;D *************************************************** And one example of a minor melody over a major bassline (I will try to avoid calling this "amphoteric") is a cover (can't remember who by) of a song called "Cold As Ice", which was released in about 2000/2001, if anyone remembers it. Which, if I remember correctly, the melody and the keyboard chords were in G minor and the bass line was in G major. This was effective, and I remember thinking at the time "why am I not cringing at the clash between the B/Bb?" But there wasn't really a clash, just this sound of being both major and minor, which was cool, even if the song itself was repetative and uninspiring. |
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Post by alex on Oct 3, 2005 12:36:41 GMT -5
When we were studying The Firebird Suite, there was a moment where we looked at the music, said what we thought about it, then listened and tried to pick it out (emphasise tried)...
Anyway as we did it we noticed what we expected to hear 2 horrible "Octatonic Derived" chords.. so we listened to it, then teacher ran over to the CD player and kept re-winding it, playing those chords over, then looked at the score again, then played it, this carried on about 50 more times and he said "i cant believe it, this has to be wrong, that is a V-I cadence"..
And so we looked, 2 totally unrelated chords, dont remember which ones but it was like a Bb major chord and F# major chord.. and they are very very VERY distantly related..
And the way it was orchestrated (as he was probably one of the top 5 best orchestrater's in Classical Music i am assured)... He created the sound of a V-I, whilst what was played, was nothing like V-I
And also something at the end, where the Brass are doing something, not a lot of memory on this one, where they change to 2 different notes but something to do with the Strings made the Brass come off as ONE totally different note..
And i dont believe for a second he is mistaken in these claims because of his standard.
So maybe its something Stravinsky messed around with... couldnt find any details on google about this, but i really didnt have a clue what to search for.
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Post by queenofshred on Oct 3, 2005 13:25:13 GMT -5
Any chance that either the score or the recording might have been wrong? Otherwise, I would put this down to the mixing of overtones that reinforce each other to produce an audible note that isn't being "played".
Something similar happens when you crunch a whole load of random notes all over the piano and hold down the sustain pedal and keep listening to this weird mixture for as long as it lasts (this is something that I used to do a lot as a child, much to the annoyance of my parents). You can hear notes in this mixture that you didn't play, and also there's a "rhythm" to it -- some of the notes aren't continuous but pulsate. And, when most of the sound has died away, what remains seems to resolve to a recognisable chord. This only happens if you really bash the keys (so maybe this is causing the other strings inside the piano to resonate -- who knows). If you haven't ever tried this, please do. This is one of the things that makes me not completely hate the piano ;D
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Post by Arsonsquad on Oct 11, 2005 17:14:42 GMT -5
I have always LOVED Yngwie's harmonies. Off the top of my head, my favorite Yngwie harmony would be the melody to Brothers off of The Seventh Sign, and I think that is played in thirds, although I have never seen the music. Iron Maiden's Powerslave album is loaded with minor 3rd's also, and if I remember correctly thats the first album that I really learned to play note for note. I was probably 17 at the time. A few months later someone told me that I had to check out Yngwie, that I would love him because he blends classical and rock and that was all it took. I was hooked, harmonized melodies all over the place. I recently started going back to church regularly and there is a lot of singing of hymns, at least 2 different hymns a service. The only other person in the whole congregation who can read music is the piano player, so I am kind of on my own with trying to pick out what vocal line to sing. I certainly can't hit all of the soprano notes (which is what everybody else tries to sing LOL)and am probably somewhere between an alto and a tenor, so it can be difficult sometimes. I've sat down with my cheesy little Casio keyboard a few times to try to train myself to sing down a third or sixth which is almost always how the song will start out. My voice naturally gravitates toward the note being sung and it can be quite overpowering sometimes to fight it. I haven't done anything like this since I was in chorus in High School and it's a lot of fun  . I took an ear training class in college and I learned how to sing a given interval off of a note played on the piano. I remember some of the tricks like Star Wars is a perfect fifth, The Bridal March is a perfect fourth and so on. I wish I was better with theory and could play piano because they are really looking for a Minister of Music but it would be way over my head ;D. |
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Post by queenofshred on Oct 11, 2005 18:01:14 GMT -5
Hmm...if only you could see what I see, it would all be so easy. I see different shapes when I hear different intervals (the ones I use as shorthand when writing). If I could find a way to teach this, I would, but I think I'm just a weird freak with the sensory crossover. lol
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Post by Arsonsquad on Oct 11, 2005 18:16:11 GMT -5
Hmm...if only you could see what I see, it would all be so easy. I see different shapes when I hear different intervals (the ones I use as shorthand when writing). If I could find a way to teach this, I would, but I think I'm just a weird freak with the sensory crossover. lol If there was anything that I would ask god for, of a selfish nature anyways, it would be to have that ability. Sometimes I feel like I almost understand something on a completely different level than I ever have before and if I can just think from a different spot of my mind (unlock a door or something like that, it's hard to explain) I will get it. It is so damn frustrating  . I can conceptually understand a lot of the things you and Alex talk about but can't apply them. And I don't really have the time or energy at the place I'm at in my life right now. Now if only I could move to Arizona and give guitar lessons for a living, then I would have the time and motivation to do all of this!!! By the way, have you ever listened to Savatage? They do a lot of cool things with intertwining vocal melodies in thirds. A lot of their music is orchestrated anyways. I love their music! I'll let you hear it if you like. |
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Post by queenofshred on Oct 15, 2005 10:48:54 GMT -5
Now if only I could move to Arizona and give guitar lessons for a living, then I would have the time and motivation to do all of this!!! By the way, have you ever listened to Savatage? They do a lot of cool things with intertwining vocal melodies in thirds. A lot of their music is orchestrated anyways. I love their music! I'll let you hear it if you like. Well, then move to Arizona and become a guitar teacher -- what's stopping you? I'm moving next week to play violin in an orchestra, and I'm having to give up a lot of things here that I took for granted in the process, but I know that this is neccessary if I'm ever to have the life that I want. I have listened to Savatage, and there's a lot there that I like (although add a few more <>s and it would be even better lol). I have to be in the right mood to listen to Savatage though. There's lots of things I like that have the 3rds harmonies. A lot of Iron Maiden and Thin Lizzy songs are like this. And I think it's Bach's 1st Brandenburg Concerto that has the horns in 3rds (it's just so sweet!). And 6ths can work in this way, too. I remember playing the solo violin in Bach's 4th Brandenburg Concerto and in the 1st movement there's this double stop section in 6ths which is just lush. |
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Post by Arsonsquad on Oct 15, 2005 10:56:01 GMT -5
Now if only I could move to Arizona and give guitar lessons for a living, then I would have the time and motivation to do all of this!!! By the way, have you ever listened to Savatage? They do a lot of cool things with intertwining vocal melodies in thirds. A lot of their music is orchestrated anyways. I love their music! I'll let you hear it if you like. Well, then move to Arizona and become a guitar teacher -- what's stopping you? I'm moving next week to play violin in an orchestra, and I'm having to give up a lot of things here that I took for granted in the process, but I know that this is neccessary if I'm ever to have the life that I want. I have listened to Savatage, and there's a lot there that I like (although add a few more <>s and it would be even better lol). I have to be in the right mood to listen to Savatage though. There's lots of things I like that have the 3rds harmonies. A lot of Iron Maiden and Thin Lizzy songs are like this. And I think it's Bach's 1st Brandenburg Concerto that has the horns in 3rds (it's just so sweet!). And 6ths can work in this way, too. I remember playing the solo violin in Bach's 4th Brandenburg Concerto and in the 1st movement there's this double stop section in 6ths which is just lush. |
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Post by Arsonsquad on Oct 15, 2005 11:05:02 GMT -5
Well, then move to Arizona and become a guitar teacher -- what's stopping you? I'm moving next week to play violin in an orchestra, and I'm having to give up a lot of things here that I took for granted in the process, but I know that this is neccessary if I'm ever to have the life that I want. I have listened to Savatage, and there's a lot there that I like (although add a few more <>s and it would be even better lol). I have to be in the right mood to listen to Savatage though. There's lots of things I like that have the 3rds harmonies. A lot of Iron Maiden and Thin Lizzy songs are like this. And I think it's Bach's 1st Brandenburg Concerto that has the horns in 3rds (it's just so sweet!). And 6ths can work in this way, too. I remember playing the solo violin in Bach's 4th Brandenburg Concerto and in the 1st movement there's this double stop section in 6ths which is just lush. A sixth is really just a downward version of a third going down from the octave higher or lower anyway, isn't it? Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #3 was my favorite piece we ever played in orchestra, but at the time I knew absolutely nothing about music theory and just played what was writen without thinking about what it meant. I don't think we ever played the 4th though. I'll have to listen to it right now. As far as Arizona goes, We're spending Christmas there this year with my Sister-In -Law. We can't move out there yet though. I own a great Victorian house a block from the ocean, all of my family and most of my friends are out here and I'm not ready to move 3,000 miles away yet. I also just got a great job contracting at the Federal Reserve Bank in Boston and am hoping to be hired on full time in February. I'm also still going to night school here and am only 5 classes away from my Bachelors degree. I think we will move there someday though. |
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Post by queenofshred on Oct 15, 2005 11:32:59 GMT -5
Yes, you're right about 6ths and 3rds that's why with the notes of the scale you get the names Mediant and Submediant.
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Post by Arsonsquad on Oct 15, 2005 12:04:17 GMT -5
Yes, you're right about 6ths and 3rds that's why with the notes of the scale you get the names Mediant and Submediant. Aha!!! I never paid attention to that lingo and have been wondering what you and Alex were talking about. I'll have to check it out. I still don't get your symbols either but I'll worry about that later. |
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Post by queenofshred on Oct 15, 2005 13:00:20 GMT -5
No-one gets my symbols! They're just something I made up coz that's how I see it. It's not an official language, or anything.
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Post by fenderbender on Mar 19, 2006 20:20:27 GMT -5
I just tried reading through the dissertations above and realized I dont have the patience for it and thats probably why I have virtually nill theory knowledge. Anne, I absolutely love 3rds, your hiroglyphics and the Picasso analogies did nothing for me however and made my head hurt. Is there a book that I could maybe pick up the that doesnt read like the guy who wrote it thinks he is the messiah or something? I have always felt ashamed of my lack of theory and I have matured in my playing to the point where I know it is the ONLY thing holding me back from the next level. I can hear the things that you guys talk about in the music we listen to and I can play/arrange things either composed by someone else or myself. I dont have a degree in music and probably neither does most of the people on this forum, which is most likely why you dont get much discussion in here. If I cant speak intelligently about something then I generally dont respond. I do appreciate that there are people on here like you and Alex who do have this knowledge tho.
"Can you think of a song (doesn't have to be Yngwie) that contains another kind of major/minor duality (e.g. a minor sounding melody over a major sounding bass line)? And was this effective, or did it just sound like a load of shit?"
I know a lot of people on here probably wont like them, but System of a Down has several "good" songs that acheive this without too much of the screaming/grunting stuff i.e. B.Y.O.B, Holy Mountains, Question. These songs have some great harmonies with the vocal lines and accompanyment.
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someones in there, this is why i need my own place).. anyways...
lol
. I took an ear training class in college and I learned how to sing a given interval off of a note played on the piano. I remember some of the tricks like Star Wars is a perfect fifth, The Bridal March is a perfect fourth and so on. I wish I was better with theory and could play piano because they are really looking for a Minister of Music but it would be way over my head ;D.
. I can conceptually understand a lot of the things you and Alex talk about but can't apply them. And I don't really have the time or energy at the place I'm at in my life right now. Now if only I could move to Arizona and give guitar lessons for a living, then I would have the time and motivation to do all of this!!!